Amazing Spider-Man #16

"pretty obvious if you think about it for like 30 seconds" ah yes because invading your home town with demonic army just so that you could get the memories of the man you deem too weak to win makes so much sense. The opening panel already has Peter (and by that Wells) questioning how any of this makes sense.

""I don't have my memories and they are fuzzy but I remember you being a dick to me Peter. Oh you said that didn't happen and also questioned how can I think like that if I don't have my memories and I just said it is fuzzy." Yes because that also makes so much sense.

Peter questioning it has nothing to do with wells because Peter thought Ben was dead and hasn't seen any of his planning. If you've actually been following what's happening to Ben and by extention Madelyn its very clear this isnt just about the one issue with Peter. Ben has felt like hes been used manipulated and treated like less of a person due to being a clone his whole life and that played into the beyond arc immensely where he was used like a toy and plaything by a company

So now they've taken his identity threatened his love and now Peter hasn't returned them, since he has none of those memories he obviously wouldn't consider any place his hometown or value it at all. Hes desperate to have any identity nit just Peter's. The whole thing is about how clones have been shafted for years

"Ben has felt like hes been used manipulated and treated like less of a person due to being a clone his whole life and that played into the beyond arc immensely where he was used like a toy and plaything by a company." That was brought up only in #894, when Ben started losing his memories. Ben already had moved on from that and accepted who he was. And how he wasn't just a "clone". Which is why he never switched lives with Peter, even when everybody thought he was the real one.

But even if we ignore all that and just explain all of them with "memory loss lol", Ben's motivation still makes no sense. He's endgame is to be Peter essentially, by having his memories and consuming his soul. So why on earth is he then destroying the hometown and attacking the loved ones of the very man he wants to essentially be.

And he isn't even angry at Beyond anymore here, the very corporation who caused him to lose memories. His sole focus is on Peter. And all of that is brought by creating very poor motivations. Ben becoming this evil is just so forced. His hatred for Peter is entirely forced. I don't hate the concept here, it could work, (even if it's just making Ben like Kaine), but the execution is so poor.

And could you ever see Peter acting this way? Would you be as okay if Peter was the bad guy here and they explained it with "Beyond messed up his memory". Could you ever see Spider-Man sending demons to New York and kidnapping people to hell in order to force someone to do what he wants. If the answer is no, I can't see why you think Ben acting this way is ok.

And it doesn't help a story about Ben turning evil was already done few years ago and he had the arc where he tried to move from that. Even if Clone Conspiracy isn't a Spider-Man story I enjoy greatly, it's still better than this non-sense.

You keep saying he's betraying something he loves but you're missing the fact that he literally doesn't have any memories of his town or the people he's interacted with they literally beat you over the head with this. This isnt Peter going bad. This is a guy who literslly doesn't know who he is and all he can remember is spidey took away something he desperately wanted. He doesn't remember new york or his memories with uncle Ben or any of that.

So if you took away everything that made Peter spider man, he probably WOULD be a bad guy, because those memories he had were foundational to the man he became. Ben has had that taken away from him; and so he has no moral code or ethics to come back to, hes literally an empty shell and a chasm

You're missing my point. Ben KNOWS who Peter Parker cares about. Ben KNOWS Peter cares for New York. And he wants all those memories and feelings to himself. So why would he hurt the people and the city he WOULD care about if he succeeded. That makes no sense. Because if he gets those memories, he will get all that guilt and responsibility he KNOWS Peter feels.

And again, if you have to have character suffering a memory loss because otherwise you know you cannot make him the bad guy you want him to be, that just screams forced and bad writing. And again, would you enjoy a storyline about Peter having a memory loss just because writers wanted him to be the bad guy in the story.

Ben's entire plan here is "I'm gonna terrorize this entire city and it's citizens including the persons I want to care about, so that I will get the memories and feelings of caring about them." That is just stupid and makes no sense.

"Not paying attention to what they're reading." Okay, since you so clearly do, tell me something. How does Ben's actions make any sense. Let's start with Ben's characterization. It's not the part of him becoming Chasm as seen in #894 that annoys me. It's how he became a full super-villain suddenly. And we have seen like what, one issue before Dark Web how he became this supervillain. We haven't seen any of the Ben's struggles since #894. Just him being really mad and angry and bad.

I'm not even comparing him to the 90s, even if they are dear to me. This full jump to him just being The Bad Spider-Man doesn't work without more buildup. And there really wasn't need for this since Kaine already exists. Ben even says his tagline "All the Power, none of the Responsibility". Making Ben just a discount Kaine without anything that made Kaine interesting and just a mustache-twirling villain is right choice then?

And the plan is even stupider. Ben wants to consume Peter's soul to get his memories. And then what? He gets all the Parker guilt he has lost, all the lessons about responsibility. Ben constantly taunts Peter here, how he is weaker and won't win, but still he wants to be him? He clearly knows who Peter is and wants to essentially become him and to do that, he sends hordes of Demons to invade New York. None of that makes sense, because what happens if he succeeds?

Having laughable dialogue that is sometimes just so mustache twirling that it's cringe and motivations that lead to such bizarre actions that makes no sense doesn't make this issue good. Ben acting OoC doesn't bother me if it is build up enough. But this is so much worse than Clone Conspiracy and David's run that it hurts.

But those are just my opinions, since apparently I cannot comprehend what I read. But since you have such a brilliant and analytical mind that understands everything so well, why don't you just tell us why do you think that is. Instead of just heavily focusing on other people not liking it.

I'll try to be concise here as I really don't think a long, drawn out response is worth anyone's time here. Ben's actions make sense if you're paying attention to the fact that he has no ability to retain his memories, and is losing more and more as time goes on. This was teased prominently during the Beyond run, the whole Hole-Faces thing. It was made clear in the final issue of that run, after he'd been goo'd, as well.

And it was reiterated again in that one prelude issue from this run. You keep applying a rationale to the character's actions based on... your own perspective, and not the character's perspective. It's akin to getting mad that a character doesn't realize that the bad guy in a story is a bad guy, but only because the story has revealed that that character is a bad guy to you as the reader/viewer. Sure, if Ben was a completely rational actor, his plan is dumb. But he's not.

His whole character arc from Beyond to now is literally saying that he's not. He's actually *literally* incapable of being rational. That's his whole issue. That's his whole problem. He is unable to build a cohesive and coherent set of values and axioms, because the Beyond corporation sucked out his foundational memories, and now whatever he had left is slowly fading as well. This isn't inference on my part. This is just the text of the story.

There's been plenty of build up. The entire Beyond run was build up for its ending. The fact that you would bring up The Clone Conspiracy as something better when your whole issue stems from a lack of build up is completely baffling. That story was literally set up to include the shocking villain reveal of Ben Reilly, meaning it had absolutely no build up to Ben's villain turn. The only way to make sense of that one was to read a tie-in that retconned his villainy into the canon.

I can be confident with my opinions, and I know that rubs some people the wrong way. I think I'm right here and your comments didn't do anything to convince me otherwise. My review wasn't even pointed directly at you. Sure, your review falls in line with what I was getting at in mine, but I was actually writing it for people who I honestly expect to put a bit more thought into the media they consume.

I am confused by your response, as it explains entirely why people don't like this. "Ben was written to have his memories lost and he now acts irrationally, just so he could be the bad guy in the 90s nostalgia baiting crossover event". And that is due to writers knowing it wouldn't work otherwise. And that just screams poor writing.

And that is the same thing Slott's run (and the Clone Conspiracy) was criticed for: changing characters just so they fit in to the story, instead of the another way around. Making Ben just another evil clone of Peter (again) even if Kaine exists is tiring. And yes, you could argue that from Ben's viewpoint his actions are explained due to his situation. But if his plans are full of holes and others question how his motives make sense (like Peter)

It's hard to be invested them in any way. It's just tiresome, especially since all of us know it was done only so that Ben could be the bad guy here. And there is no other reason for it. Sure, few parts of Beyond build up for Ben's villainy, but him going this bad of a mustache twirling villain just isn't earned. Especially since it was done already few years ago, with almost just as bad motivations.

Just because few mlre issues were used to justify that Ben is a villain (again) in a crossover, it still isn't any better than Slott's run, especially if the justification is "memory-loss lol". But if you can't see that, it's maybe better you put more thought to the media you consume and don't just accept everything base value.

You really fail to see the point of what I was saying in my review. The point is not that you have to like the characterization, but that you have to criticize it on its own terms rather than what you think it ought to be.

"Making a character go through something that changes the character" is always the better option to "Change a character and then explain why after".

That's how stories work. That's how comics work. You can think it's poor writing, but the reasoning you have for it simply comes down to "it's bad because I don't like it." Which isn't very convincing.

Think about what you just said. You can apply that same very simple, very stupid response to any character change ever incorporated into a story. Come up with a better reasoning and get back to me, and don't act so indignant when that's what you're coming with.

You completely moved the goalpost from "This character and his plan no longer make sense" to "I don't like this because obviously the writer *planned his story out and gave this character an arc I don't like*." Poor writing smdh.

I'm again very baffled with what you say. I say that Ben's plan makes no sense in any way and you counter with it "well Ben's mind has been rambled". And then I continue with that it's poor writing due to they repeating "Ben is villain now" -storyline again so soon with just even poor reasoning (memory loss lol), just so that they could write Ben like this, because they know his actions and don't make any sense otherwise.

Your reasoning would work only, if we ignore Ben's past history and had read only Beyond before this. But I'm thinking Ben's history in it's entirety and this "character arc" this is just a poor excuse to retell the story of Ben being bad. Except this time it boils down to a very non-sensical plan that is justified by saying "Ben has a memory loss and he can't think rationally".

I never said it had no buildup in Beyond. I remember liking those issues that focused on Ben and how his memories were manipulated and I still do. So the buildup to Ben being lost, no being able to think rationally and all that was build up. It's the non-sensical outcome that really shows how poor it is. Because now we are left with a sudden "full moustache-twirling villain" that has such a stupid plan just to showcase "how evil he is now".

And it's even more annoying that it's coming from Wells, who did such a wonderful job with Tombstone and Hobgoblin stories and has written Norman so well. Comparing all those to Ben, Ben feels now like a parody character that has non-sense evil plan that everyone seems to notice but him. And I can't think this was the intent of Wells, when he wrote all those Beyond issues.

His plan makes sense. He knows Peter has what he wants and is working with the Goblin Queen to get it. The reasons you've given for why it doesn't is based on your own rationale outside of the comic book itself. This is, again, my point in my initial review. Character motivations and actions are not judged on how you are motivated or how you would act.

If you can't understand what I'm saying here, there's no point in keeping this going. At least not here in a comment thread.

"I want the memories of the man who hated me since I remember him not giving me his memories even though I have stated I've lost my memories and can't remember. He states it didn't happen that way but I will still hate him. My plan is to attack his loved city and torture and kidnap his loved ones so that I can remember loving for this city and caring for those he is close to. I believe that man is weak and cannot beat me due to his morality and sense of responsibility, so I want to be him."

It's not the fact that Ben wants Peter's memories that doesn't make sense. The way what he plans to get them and how he talks about Peter doesn't make sense at all.

Okay.