Batman #60

I actually think those with PTSD will be the most insulted with how he depicts it.

Some are, some aren’t. That’s the nature of any art that’s trying to do something other than what’s come before. I’m bipolar 1 with major depression, major anxiety, and PTSD. I find King’s writing about trauma to be the most true to my experience of just about any artist out there this side of Beckett or Elliott Smith. But I almost always go out of my way to say that my take is my take and that anyone can reasonably disagree with it.

Or Sarah Kane. I could go on. Most of the writers I identify with are playwrights or songwriters. I identify with King's work more than any other comic book writer.

Even so, editing to address your point.

I respect your opinion, but Bruce isn’t currently more traumatized than before Kings run. What happened: Catwoman broke up with him, so what?Its not like he doesn’t have countless women, I think King doesn’t understand, that Bruce doesn’t have just 1love. Then Dick, worse happened before with Jason being dead. It’s nothing new for Bruce. He thought Stephanie& Tim died, nothing happened. Point is he can deal with all of that, but King doesn’t understand that.

We get that Batman is traumatized, it just didn't feel particularly earned. And I say that as someone who has had to deal with it too. He's dealt with so much, but it takes Catwoman leaving him at the alter (which shouldn't traumatize anyone, especially considering that relationship was the equivalent of two teenagers finding out sex is fun) and his son being shot (when far worse has happened to his robins before).

The character needs to go through some heavy shit and Nightwing getting shot is heavy until you look at Batman’s history and that he's dealt with similar things before.

I'm not even going to give credence to the Bat/Cat relationship. I always thought it was a joke. And had theorized among friends that they were going to realize they are in a juvenile relationship and don't actually love each other like they think and that was going to be the sad ending.

It wasn't just amother relationship though, it was an engagement, and these characters have 80 years worth of stories together so amounting it to just finding out what sex is... is your personal ignorance of the history of these characters.

Not to mention, real relationships don't cease when an outside source has an opinion on whether or not it is legit. If that were true almost nobody would actually be in a relationship. Everyone has different ideas of what makes a relationship, so... if it really were entirely intimate and sexual, that would be their choice. It doesn't make their relationship any less valuable if it isn't traditional, they clearly share an emotional connection though.

Also, as someone who is almost always depressed I can say anger is definitely one of the emotions that comes out the strongest. I am usually the chillest mofo, but after years of heart break, death, and things just generally not going my way... my temper has come out a lot more, especially if you have no outlet.

That's how it was written. This isn't a real relationship. So the reader's interpretation does actually matter. And that's what it was like. It was like two kids. And intimacy doesn't equal sex. And I don't give a shit if they have 80 years of history. This run should be able to give me a good reason why these two work on its own, and it doesn't. I'm not ignorant of their history, I just know that what I read was not making the relationship work.

The only time I ever felt anything for that relationship was the second Batman annual, which is presumably not canon now, so that's nice.

It did. It was called Rooftops and Batman Annual #2.

Rooftops, which was basically just them fighting crime and fucking? And Batman annual 2,the non-canonical annual that doesn't happen.

If my relationship was like Bat/Cat, I'd call it quits.

I think the past experiences in that annual aren't meant to be exclusive to that story, just the outcome. It seems to be a different world where the marriage went through.

Well maybe they would've grown to be a happy couple. But it would've been the ending to the graduate at first if this relationship was at all realistic.

Yes, because out of all the women Batman has been with over the decades, Catwoman is the only one who also dresses up and truly lives at night, like him. If Batman is the stronger identity she makes the most sense for him. Kind of like ages ago when he was attracted to Nocturna because she was a woman of the night, he chose her over Vicki Vale, who is the girl he gets along with as Bruce, but the moment Catwoman shows back up in Gotham, he quickly realizes

that she is the most exciting woman to him by far and he doesn't have to hide any part of his life from her.

Just your description sounds juvenile. "Most exciting". A thrill seeking relationship is always a positive and nurturing one.

Well, he is Batman, so... you know my words, not his. He is visibly way into everything about her. Also, excitement is a part of attraction.

I couldn't list anything. She's a femme fatale without anything intriguing about them.

Well, good thing you aren't Batman then.

But I'm the reader who's supposed to be invested in this shitty relationship. So maybe I should understand it, at least.

There's an audience here. That's a writer is supposed to play to. Batman isn't a friend I think is in a bad relationship.

Writers who specifically pander to readers are just writers with a weak backbone. If you want to read a Batman book where you control the narrative, you can write one yourself and probably get the same experience.

There's a difference between a writer that just panders and a writer who writes a story that readers can understand and identify with.

Building and relationship and making it feel earned isn’t pandering and King failed to do that. He depended on a huge history, most of which isn’t even in continuity. That’s lazy writing.

@Br‘er Lapin And yet Bruce once chose Bekka over Catwoman& don’t forget Talia or Silver. He had many women with whom he shared a similar connection like to Selina, zu point is he never trusted any of them enough or was willing to put them first. Gotham/ Batman is his first, That’s why this whole wedding thing feels out of character& more like fanservice. I agree with the others, that it just lazy written. It also feels wrong for Holly to be a psycho mass murderer King wrote her as.

I have a lot more to say about the Bat-Cat relationship. May take a few days for me to get around to it but I feel like one of the most important exchanges in this run was between Bruce and Alfred. Bruce says something like, "Can I be happy?" Alfred says something like, "After all you've been through, don't you have to be?" The major difference between Catwoman and all the other women in Bruce's life is that he finally let his guard down in a way he'd never been able before.

He hadn't been able to do that (at all) before. He shared everything with her and was surprised to find she'd still love him, warts and all. This was unprecedented and I think the main point of King's run has been "can Batman be happy?" He gave himself over to her in a way he never did before. That makes every difference.

As for being through all this sort of stuff before, repeated trauma works by attrition. It doesn't get easier, especially for someone with such a hard time expressing his feelings. It gets harder. Every loss brings back every loss before it. To lose his "first son" as he did so soon after what happened with Selina... He was already more distraught than he's been since his parents were killed.

I realize I said I didn't have time but then wrote a lot. But that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of responding to other comments here. More later...

When I say he was already more distraught I mean by the attrition of all prior losses (they all come back, every time) and too finding out that he could be happy and then having that yanked away from him. He's not a guy that gets relief from talking his problems over with his "family." He's a stiff upper-lip guy. After enough trauma that just breaks.

With Bekka he let his guard way more down than he ever did with Selina, because he himself admitted it. He pointed out back then, that Bekka is the one woman, who could save him& the one, who understood him best. And honestly the way King wrote these two there is nothing that shows us any reason, why Selina suddenly is so special to him. And this „Can Bruce be happy?“ doesn’t work for me, since the question rather is, does he deserve to be happy? I don’t think so.

He himself hurt many people& it’s his responsibility, that Jason was killed. The reason why he isn’t happy, isn’t because he doesn’t have chances, he can’t take them, because he never overcame his trauma. But other than sone villains Bruce had many chances& more importantly people, who stood by his side. Overall Bruce has a good life& not just because he is rich, but also because he always had a family, who believed in him. But he doesn’t see that at all& keeps whining about loosing his parents.

When Selina told him in his letter, that he was still a child, that’s the one true thing King wrote.

If you see Bruce as having had a good life, I have to question your understanding of the character. If you see him as "whining" about losing his parents, that goes double. I do agree his emotional life has been retarded by trauma and his inability to seek help for it, so yes, in ways he's totally still a child. He's still the child he was when the initial trauma occurred. I don't think Selina called him a child though as much as she said 'you're still that little boy' or whatever....

In Jungian analysis when I've talked about any rotten, recurring feeling, my analyst has always responded with, "Do you remember the first time you felt that way?" The answer to that is always enlightening because many of us develop our emotional lives in response to an originating trauma. Nobody that talks about early trauma is ever "whining." I never want to be disagreeable here but as someone with a lot of early trauma I found that comment disturbing.

In comparison to other characters& also to real life people Bruce of course has a good life. Apart from losing his parents, did he ever receive negativity? He was always supported by people like Alfred/ Leslie, he wasn’t abused by people, he should be able to trust, while other characters were. He isn’t the character with the most traumatic past. That’s my point. I’d call him whining, because he still thinks, that he has the most traumatic past of all. What is common among people,

who are suffering from a depression. That only shows, that he is far away from actually moving on. Compared to people let’s say who are living in Africa it’s complaining in a very high level. You of course can’t make a ranking of trauma, but yes his constant whining about his parents gets really annoying. I could deal with it, if he wasn’t such a hypocrite.

As for Selina I think she reversed it in a later line, but she is right with that. Bruce is still living in the past, unwilling to see, that what he is doing also isn’t 100% right.

"Though my problems are meaningless, that don't make them go away." Everyone can point to another person's problems as being more serious or drastic than anyone else. The fact that someone has it worse doesn't make things better for the person that has it very bad. We fundamentally disagree on what's meant by the character (always evolving) since Denny O'Neil began psychologically profiling him in the 70s. You can have the last word. Peace.

I will say I find your depiction of depressing very distressing. I'll be uncharacteristically tame when I say it's a shame some people still think of clinical depression as whining. But you do you.

*depression, not "depressing"

Batman has never been shown as clinically depressed until Kong’s run though. He’s motivated and driven by his past trauma but he’s never come off as clinically depressed until now. That makes the constant referencing to it in this run out of character. It’s been addressed before but never this poorly and for this long.

@Batman Jones, we don’t talk depression in real life, we are talking about Bruce‘s character. Therefore I can call him whining, that however doesn’t mean, I would call a person, who suffers from depression in real life a whiner. No need to make that personal. Sure they don’t, but neither does self-pity.

&Talon1load I agree, I however think Batman is acting more like a teenager in Kings run, who can’t get over, that his girlfriend broke up with him. It just doesn’t fit Bruce, that this bothers him so much. Even that with Dick. His psychological problems were a lot better adressed in Bruce Wayne Murderer/ Fugitive.

I agree. King failed to show any meaningful progression in the Batman Catwoman relationship making it feel unearned. Since they haven’t been a couple in years it needed more buildup. Then the breakup just felt like it wasn’t a big deal but Bruce is now shattered? Nah man. This entire runs progression is lacking.

I agree. Same goes for Catwoman. She also isn’t that dependable. And as for me I would expect more of Bane. Ruining Bruce’s wedding feels cheap for him. In Detective Comics Bruce acts normal, but in Kings Batman run he is acting all weird.

Batman has never been as emotionally depressed as his is in this run. That's true, it's also not a knock on his character, it only serves to humanize him like never before. You cant say it's out of character, you've never seen batmans' heartbroken romantically by Catwoman (obvious true love) this hard. So not one of you can say how Bruce would react, and to be honest he definitely has not been as much of a pussy as he was in Nightfall.

You keep saying Batmans "whiny" also... yet all I see is him being colder, tightlipped, and more serious. Hes hurt, angry, sad, and to be honest hes doing a good job NOT whining. Unlike most of you.

Also you just compared Catwoman drama with a high school break up... this perfectly demonstrates how out of touch you are. Have you not loved a woman more than life itself? I could give a shit about my HS girlfriend, cant even remember her name to be honest with you. You obviously lack maturity, or are underdeveloped emotionally.

Also King cant fail at progressing the Catwoman/Batman relationship... since he never had intentions to do so. Or did that go over your head also? We got something way more interesting then wedding pictures, we got drama... lots of it.

Cosigned. Thanks for posting.

The Bat/Cat played out like a high school romance. King's writing never made it look anything like true love. We're not literally saying that's what it was. We're not saying characters reacted that way to it. We're saying that's how it was written, and that's why none of the reactions to that relationship and its break up feel earned. If the love of my life and I had the relationship that Batman and Catwoman, it'd be a sad existence for me.

And every time someone writes characters or their relationship, they're adding to a bigger tapestry, so King actually did progress those characters' relationship, he just didn't do anything good or anything that would make new readers latch onto these characters.

Oh, and idk if I'd call Batman whiny, but he's clearly letting his emotions get the best of him through his actions and it's deepening the divide between himself and those he's closest, or did that fly over your head?

It's like um.... NO, heh. It's not written like a High School drama, this is not based on some superficial crush, there are much much bigger and more important things to worry about than a teenage girl running home in the rain crying... So you can like...talk to the hand.

Also my point was it was not his intention to make big moves with the Bat/Cat relationship, He just used the opportunity to pay homage (and give Bane a sick plan), which was done in an awesome way, it had me going through all my old Catwoman/Batman comics... this should be great for getting new readers interested in what's already happen, there was so much history written into his story, it's just silly to say new readers wouldn't like it, its literally showing what's already canon, it should en

And no, it did not go over my head that Bruce might be letting his emotions get the best of him, or that he may be deepening the divide between those hes closest to. Hes still not whining though, what's your point.

***entice new readers

It felt superficial. The most they did was fuck. The most teenager example of that is when Catwoman straddled Batman in that amusement park. They never really talked much, remember the Poison Ivy story where Catwoman just kept talking and talking while Batman said almost nothing. And all it took to destroy this relationship was some last minute doubt? That's true love if I've ever seen it.

And paying homage isn't enough. I don't want to have to read back issues to enjoy the story as it's presented. The "they have so much history" argument is shitty. Any comic can be someone's first, so you have to make it work on its own. Simple as that. And no, DC has no concrete canon, that's the whole point of the varying stories of how Batman and Catwoman met. So good luck with that.

Punching your friends and beating people is worse than whining. So I don't think we should give him credit for not whining. That's just stupid.

All they did was fuck? Forget all the letters, forget how they reveal themselves to each other like never before, let's just forget all the wonderful reminiscing, and beautiful art. Fuck it, Tom King had em fuck... yep, just like new 52 Catwoman, they just fucked... yep yep yep. You know Selina loves Holly also... that's true love aswell, it actually makes sense, and it makes even more sense once you realize she's just being played. It's not just some whimsical last minute decision.

Paying Homage is enough, this is possibly the greatest superhero couple ever, they have almost 80 years of history, it was practically overdue. I felt as if this entire run was worth while just for the paying of homage between Cat/Bat. Even if the climax of this run fizzles out, I'll still appreciate the story he told between them. Also, no one said you "have" to read the back issues for Kings story to make sense. I only said it serves to entice people, it'll only enrich everything after that.

As for this non sequitur you're going on about. He still isnt spending his time whining, if you wanna not give him credit for not whining... fine who gives a shit, the fact remains.... hes not whining and those other guys said he was, they are wrong. He punched Gordon... its fucked up... yyyyyeeeeeaaaahhhhhhh.

The letters that have been repeated by more than just Catwoman and Batman, meaning it wasn't special. They revealed themselves like never before? Sure. And reminiscing? You mean the filler issues? And the writing has nothing to do with the art. Catwoman didn't know she was being played, she saw her best friend, another true lover, seed doubt uncharacteristically, but sure you love someone and can't tell when they're acting weird.

Paying homage is enough for you as a fanboy. Not for someone like me and many others. And the character motivations are not presented well enough for anything to feel earned. And you and so many others keep going on about their 80 year history, so sorry for thinking I would have to. It's your go to defense.

He's whining with hos fists, which is more destruction and upsetting for his friends and family, I'm sure.

*his fists

The writing has nothing to do with the art? Have you ever read a comicbook script? Hard to take you seriously. Also Holly is clearly a sociopath, lying is not hard for them, yes people are fooled by thier lovers at times, its RL bro. You probably keep hearing the same arguments because so many people feel as I do and were actually satisfied. Bruce was the one that was more motivated from the get go, he had a near death experience, he freed Catwoman, he clearly wanted to love like a normal person

So yeah his emotional unrest... it does feel earned. I really do feel like Bruce wanted something, came really close to having it, watched it all evaporate quickly away as the ground below him started to crumble, and he just cant seem to put the pieces together. Not surprised if he starts acting out of character... it's like the point.

You know whining is typically a feeble act also... when Bruce lashes out it's not over some "feeble" bullshit. There is something seriously wrong in his city, he feels it but cant figure it out. It was a great way to show us how lost Batman is right now, and how frightening Bane is. He didnt whine with his fists, he lost control with them, and for good reason.

I can separate the art from the writing. There's some masterfully drawn comics with shit writing. Civil War 2 is an example of that. And there are amazingly written comics with horrible art. I think Dan Slott's She-Hulk is a good example of that. Both can enhance the other, but I don't give credit to the writer for the artist's work or vice versa. Holly might be a sociopath, but she's not doing it for her own manipulative reasons, she's doing it for Bane. She's not acting of her own accord.

Plus, Catwoman knows her and should know about her tendencies. So yeah, still not buying it. Even if my best friend tried to get me to doubt someone I truly loved, I wouldn't. But Catwoman was easily swayed.

And the argument is shit, no matter who parrots it. I don't give a shit if fanboys love it because of all the other things they've read that inform it. It needs to stand on its own. I've explained this like four times, see if you can finally figure it out, champ.

Catwoman is about as normal as a flying pig.

The whole premise is fucked by the unbelievability being present from the start. It only feels earned if I can believe that anything about that relationship was genuine and not just two children giving into lust.

I don't think this mystery would perplex Batman to the point of anger. I think he'd just keep being a detective and keep trying to figure it out. That's what Batman does. And what's been sorely missing from this run.

Art is subjective. Every personal response to it is valid. That's the first rule of any art form, including comics. @YourGreenMuse: comments like "the argument is shit" are very unwelcome in the comments section of any review I post. I encourage disagreement because it's inherent to any controversial art but if you can't disagree without being disagreeable please take it somewhere else. More...

I do realize this is an internet comments section where manners go to die but if people can't disagree without being nasty and without allowing for other opinions, I guess the only recourse I'll have is to stop reviewing here. If so, that's fine too. Whenever I review a comic I love there are people that can't help tearing the book down in comments section and that takes all the joy out of reading comics for me. So if that's what I need to do, I won't miss posting here at all.

If you take a moment to notice, I do post to reader's reviews that I disagree with, but I don't tell others their opinions are wrong. I only add my own opinions. But I do that with the allowance that the opposing opinion is every bit as valid as my own. If anyone thinks their opinion is objectively right, they misunderstand art in a fundamental way. Art is always subjective. Debates about it are both boring and boorish to me. Again, I don't mind disagreeing; I mind being disagreeable.

My subjective opinion is that stories should be able to stand on their own. The reason I was so disagreeable is because I've said this multiple times here and it's still brought up like somehow my opinion is going to change.

I'm not stopping anyone from having differing opinions than me. I'm just not going to change mine for the sake of agreeableness. I don't care what you do or do not do. It's all up to you. But if you're going to post on a public forum, you need to expect disagreements. Also, I'd like to point out Æther started the more personal arguments, yet you cosigned what he said. So I think maybe it does have something to do with someone not sharing your opinion.

Yeah man, Aether started with the personal attacks and you had no problem with that so getting on to someone who has an opinion opposed to yours for doing saying an argument is shit, which is less insulting, is hypocritical.

You can act like you're above it all you want, you can chastise me and anyone else for not being agreeable, I don't care. I don't know how you expected me to respond to you considering quitting the site. Why would I even begin to care? If you want my subjective feelings on it, I think it's an overreaction and a bit of a joke, but you're free to do what you want, just as anyone else on this site.

It wasn't a threat or anything. I know no one cares if I quit reviewing. I've only been doing it the last few months anyway. These kinds of 'debates' take all the joy out of comic books for me. It's not on any one person and it's only my personal experience. Not a threat because who cares if I review. Just saying this stuff takes all the fun out of one of the last things that still brings me joy and I can't have that. Y'all do whatever you want.

This is a drag for me now though so the most I'll likely do in the future is a star rating. I should really just avoid this site entirely. It's not fun for me and it's important to me that the few remaining fun things in my life continue to be so. No hard feelings.

If that's what you want to do, go ahead. It seems like you want people to agree with you, and that's just not going to always happen on any review site.

@Batman Jones I really don’t think you should stop reviewing just because others disagree with you ( your decision of course)& I don’t think they wanted to personally offend you, just discuss about it.. @topic Hush& Heart of Hush both aren’t canon anymore& these are the two stories, that show Selina& Bruce as a couple. Therefore I think King needs to address their connection more. Also Bruce has a similar deep connection to Talia. She just gets overlooked here.

What people forget Bruce isn’t Clark. There isn’t one woman in his life. I think this whole wedding is just fanservice without any sense and of course DCs move to make more money,

Personal attack? Did I say you all smell of ape shit, did I say you have a small dick? What's going on here... you know it's ok to tell someone they lack maturity or to tell them they are having things go over their head... especially when that person is going around comparing Catwoman to a flying pig. Its literally ridiculous.

My so-called "insults" are in direct response to something you said, if you say something dumb, then I'll let you know. I'm not here to insult you, just your dumb ideas, is this really not clear? If you get insulted, you're probably just too attached to your ideas, and it demonstrates why you are struggling so much with disagreement.

Thanks, Æther. You just proved my exact point, buddy. The hypocrisy of Batman Jones. Bravo.

@Aether Talia& Bekka aren’t flying pigs -_-Batman Jones However is right,in a real discussion you indeed talk respectful with the other one without using words like „shit“ ,,fuck“ etc., but I also have no problem with discussing more aggressively. I can deal with both, but I think we should respect, if someone just wants to discuss in a less agressive way.

@BatmanJones Sorry for blowing up your review. These haters just drive me crazy. It really is a nightmare talking to these people, I know exactly how you must feel. I wanted to just walk away myself, but when you love something, what else can you do but fight for it? I appreciate your reviews, and insights. Yeah you may not change these guys minds but your thoughts will always stand in contrast to theirs, who know how many other people that may help or influence.

@Aether Don’t think we are haters for pointing out an opinion. I’ve read most of Batman‘s comics& with Kings run there are just flaws I can’t ignore. Maybe you should learn how to deal with criticism.

Deal with criticism? Is that your way of saying I should just agree with you and shut up? Haters are people with hateful opinions, just like you and many others here, let's not play anymore word games please. I still haven't been convinced by any of these supposed "flaws" Also you can ignore it, you just stop reading, you even said yourself you like DC comic more... how selfish can you be? Did you really think you would like every batman comic ever written? How naive.

Does it occur to you that I hate the new Detective Comics... I almost threw up in my mouth when Tim Drake supposedly died from that drone strike, and Batman only made cry face when he saw that Tim was accepted into some fucking school. I love Batman, but I hate those TV drama moments it was horrible. Still you wont find me spreading my hate over there, throwing it all over the people who happen to love it... why should I pull punches, it's not like you guys are respectable.

You don’t have to agree with me, but I for sure don’t have to let you call me a hater, when I just pointed out my opinion. If you make a review, of course people are going to respond to it. Disagreeing is no hate& by your reaction you definitely have to learn how to take criticism. I would call many characters being out of character, cheap drama, awful repetitive dialogue, bad story telling call flaws. Even so I put it nicely.

If you can’t see these flaws you might have to read more comics. And of course no one will like every comic ever written, but I can criticize if a comic is badly written. King is mediocre at best. With Tynions Detective run I agree, however that story is over since quite a while.

Why are you so upset with the hater thing? Ok Ok, So you dont hate Tom Kings batman comic? You just think they are flawed? And probably overrated? Ok then lol cool. I still think it's more developed than a HS drama, and I'm still gonna argue with you if you say something I dont like. Agree to Disagree.... Again!!!

Also you guys are pretty hypocritical, I usually just argue against your points, and then you tell me something like I need to read more comics or something? It's just like come on man, we just have different taste... as simple as that.

Maybe I have missed that, but I didn’t see any arguments of you against Kings bad dialogue he is often using. He tends to make his character babble over nothing. He did that in Mr Miracle& especially when Joker/ Catwoman were talking. Not to mention, that you ignore what I said about Talia/ Bekka. I told you to read more comics, because you then might would realize that it’s out of character for Bruce to get that crazy just because of a breakup with his girlfriend. Same goes for Dick.

He faced worse& didn’t act all crazy as he does in Kings Batman run. Batman is about emotional Control& that’s why the entire story idea doesn’t make any sense

For me dialogue can only be bad if its totally pointless, nothing has been said without meaning in my mind. He is minimalistic and subtle with his exposition sure, but I cant say that's bad. I need examples, the Catwoman and Joker issue wasnt just pointless babbling. It gave us a lot of insight into how they feel for Batman. Plus it's even more interesting once you realize Joker is in bed with Bane, it's actually pretty fun watching him subtly plant seeds of doubt in Catwomans mind.

I dont think Talia and Bekka are nearly as important to Bruce as Selina. I definitely consider Talia and Bekka Girlfriends... selina is true love though. If you go up to some random person on the street, people know that Batman goes with Catwoman. Even non-fans know this... that's how meant for each other they are. Randoms wont know anything about Talia or Bekka, his first and true love will always be Selina, not Julie Madison. There really is no comparison.

Yeah Batman is about emotional control, but sometimes I think it's important to witness our heroes faulter. Even the toughest of us can be broken, I think this story is for them. I'm looking forward to watching Batman put the pieces back together, regain his composure and come out stronger for it. I think it will be inspiring for a lot of people, it will only be out of character if he doesn't get better. Failing is ok, it's how you recover that counts.

The dialogue was pointless, not to mention awfully written, they were lying on the ground babbling over nothing like about the other villains, what neither fitted those villains nor Joker or Selina. Selina’s& Bruce’s „love“ isnt very deep, if someone like Joker can plant seeds of doubts. Joker also wouldn’t let himself use like thatby Bane. Not to mention that this whole wedding idea was dumb, because they easily could have married as Bruce Wayne& Selina Kyle. These plotholes were created for

cheap drama& to force villains like Joker in it. King also forgot about the Joker Catwoman plot. One issue they were lying on the ground with Catwoman almost dying, next issue she is alright, planning her weeding. That’s bad writing as it best. Then you don’t know Bruce’s character. He himself pointed out, that only Bekka can save him, because she alone understands his struggle in life. In the very same monologue, he put Selina under Bekka. Same goes for Talia. These women were on the same level

For him Pre52& also in Rebirth. In Kings of Fear he just put them on the same level once again. People are saying Catwoman due to her popularity, but those people most of the time don’t know the comics. And neither does King& that’s why he ignores Talia or Bekka.

There were stories were he had an emotional breakdown like in Bruce Wayne murderer or after Death in the Family, but those were better written. The pain King creates for him seems quite common& he actually could deal with it, since he did with worse before.

You and I have not read the same comics. Your emotional ties are nothing at all like mine, it's quite obvious. It has nothing to do with who needs to read what, or someone needs to read more. We all clearly have our own favorite comics we pick out, in a way we all create our own canon. Tom King likes the same Batman comics I do, I guess, hes progressing the stories I like. To me the Batman story in your head sounds pretty convoluted. I like this story, that's all that matters to me.

One man's trash, is another man's treasure... and so on and so forth.

Like I said I’ve read most Batman comics, so I know what I’m talking about. You are missing facts like with Catwoman, but ok let’s leave it at this and agree to disagree here.

the only way i'd be able to buy into Batman throwing such a violent tantrum, would be if it were live action, and if Tommy Wiseau was playing Batman. :P

speaking of which, have you ever seen this before? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89RP0oPEiv0

Not until you gave me the link, but I'm glad I have. "I will tear you apart Riddler, I will tear crime apart!" "Hugo, you always play psychologist." "I am vengeance, I am the naight. I am Batman. Haha!"

hahahaha! that video is too awesome! :D - - - "i will find who killed my parents. i will get them." (editor's note: this subplot is never mentioned again.)

Wow! I actually decided to start reading Tom King's Batman as an Elseworld comic, and what do you know, I liked it a lot better. "My opinion is a strange and irrational beast," as stated in my review. You have a great opinion on this issue however. It's a shame DC doesn't just pull this series out of continuity for real, however.

ohhaimark - there are MUCH better Elseworlds Batman stories out there than this. ;)

@ohhaimark Yeah I should read this as an Elseworld, but I just can’t lol @myconius That’s True though.

At least we got plot development and better writing in general this issue. I went from 2/10 with KGBeast back to 9/10 this issue. It's when King gets mired in nonsense and and self indulgence that the other flaws outright ruin the book for me. And hey, at least we got 5 fights in one issue, not one fight in 5 issues, am I right?

And yes, comics are much more enjoyable when you read them like their own "elseworld" stories. King's Batman is not so different as to be unrecognizable. His problem is he gets lost in the feelings and the metatextual qualities of "what it means to be Batman" that he loses air sight of telling an actual Batman story sometimes.

Yes, but if a writer writes canon stories he should be able to write stories, that don’t contradict everything else. If he can’t do that, he should stick to Elseworlds. The Penguin story was better than the one with KGBeast, I agree, but I don’t think it was awesome or great.

I enjoyed this book, I'm sorry you spent your money on it and still disliked the issue.

dear gentle reader, unfortunately I disagree with your evaluation of Batman 60, but you can enjoy whatever you like

One hint for a happier life, don't question comic book logic. Just marvel at the fact that Alfred is talking poetry with Penguin, while feeding Penguin like an actual penguin. If your friends start feeding each other sardines while blindfolded, well that would be cause for actual concern.

Comic book logic is one thing. Which is why I don't have a problem with flying aliens or the fact that guy bit by a spider suddenly walks on walls or with detective monkeys. But sometimes I get things so ridicules like that feeding where my suspension of disbelief can't take it.

ridiculous*

i didn't even want to begin getting into the Penguin and the implications of bestiality. but yeah, there was no need for that in the story.

Well, I'm sure it'll never be be brought up again, so it's okay.

it gives a whole new meaning to being a Bird Watcher. . . . . . YUCK!!!

I respectfully disagree with your assessment of this issue

That's nice

Yes

nope. DC's riding this one down like the Titanic.

i don't think you're wrong. you summed it up perfectly.

"the world's worst detective" that about covers it.

with all due respect, I disagree with you fine sir

That's just an assumption you're making about Beast. It was just a courtesy to open the door to help feed Penguin, made it less awkward for both of them. It's so not a big deal, I had many money on Alfred anyways... I didnt see any umbrella around. As for the Blindfold... well it is Batmans. It was all serving to help us gain trust in Penguin, I thought King was gonna trick us for sure, so I was pleasantly surprised.

Psh, ofcourse the Penguin loves a Penguin, that was a no brainer, Penguins are also very family oriented. Lastly you dont even know why Bruce's father is really there, but you just assume its silly... it could be something as simple as Psyco Pirate helping control him, Its probably something else, but that's just one example. Who knows what's going on with that yet. Your fastidious outlook is overwhelmingly pessimistic.

Love how the art reminds me of the very first Batman comics where Batman was snapping criminal necks and dropping them off buildings also. Very Pre-Robin feeling Batman.

I tried to see it more positive, but you are kind of right. I am however glad Penguin wasn’t that badly portrayed in the end. Still 45 issues left..

i have to admit the scenes with Alfred and Penguin chatting it up were pretty amusing. - - though all the scenes with Batman (as well as Gordon's) were just bad. - - yeah. i hear Tom King is staying on the title until issue #105. - - - - issue #106 can't get here SOON enough!!

Yes same here, but it’s still another 2 years. Could be worse though. King is mediocre for me, so I hope it doesn’t get really bad. What I keep asking myself, why does Alfred/ Bruce just deal with Oswald being married to a penguin, I mean who wouldn’t burst out laughing, when he is talking about love, whe he refers to a penguin.

Why the hell would he be married to a damn bird? This was beyond stupid. What kept Penguin from pulling up his blind fold? Why did Alfred have to open the cage with the really big hole in it to hand feed Penguin? This was painfully stupid.

It was but not as stupid as he would have been married to a real woman out of nowhere, especially because he was never able to have a functional one. As for the rest, I don’t know.

after Thomas Wayne beat up Alfred and Penguin made his escape, did Penguin then see Alfred's identity? - - - did Penguin just wander his way out of the Bat-cave and into Wayne Manner?

We’ll never know because King will never address it.

I hope Penguin is alright though. If it’s really Thomas Wayne I guess King will break Bruce even more by letting him fight his dad.

the issue will end with Thomas giving Bruce a spanking. - - "now you take your medicine, young man!"

lol I hope Thomas leaves pretty soon. Can’t stand him.

I respectfully disagree with your review

Once again we disagree… Once again I fully respect your opinion however. As I said in my review, "My opinion is a strange and irrational beast."

that’s funny. well, it’s like the old saying goes, taste is subjective. i myself just can’t get past the way Batman is overreacting, letting Bane get him so completely unhinged. that and i still can’t buy into the childish temper tantrum he was throwing last issue, punching Gordon in the face. do you know what he was acting like? Bruce was acting the way Damian acted in his very first introduction, when all he knew was his spoiled upbringing from the League of Assassins. - different strokes, eh?

Totally agree. I can’t see Bruce being so disrespectful to Gordon like that & neither can I see Gordon giving up on Bruce like that. Kings Version of Batman makes me roll my eyes.

it just feels so overly forced.

It does indeed.

Such strange Gordon dialogue, Head trama? Alzheimer's? He was taking atleast 5-7 second pauses between those dialogue boxes.

Yeah just who's M.O. is it to be beating up bad guys on a rooftop anyways. It's not like Batman coulda just abducted Zeus in an alley and then brought him to the roof for a little interrogation.... no friggen way he doesnt do that shit. Maxie was definitely standing on the roof to begin with because... yeah...

Yeah why didnt Penguin just act like the Penguin... it's like he was honestly worried or something, it's like what for bro? You got no enemies and Batman is in such a good mood. Makes no sense for the Penguin to be acting like such a cowardly shit, hes normally such a brave little chod. He coulda ripped that damn blindfold off and just become the next Batman for fucksake, he was in the damn batcave everyone hello! Not to mention all my Penguin sexual fantasies have been utterly DESTROYED!

Plus yeah, it makes no sense that the feds didnt jump out of the bushes and take down the KGBeast right when they saw them fighting. These are just comic Superheros and Villians... I know they were holding those surveillance cameras also but COME ON!! GODDAMN IT KING!!!

Batman is so not himself, it's like dont you know Batman cant not be himself, then hes like not Batman. See what I mean? Deep shit.

And yeah that one guy loved his autographed bat more than all of life, he was going to cherish it forever... as his retirement policy. Now he will live a homeless bum life thanks to Gordon, and heartless Gordon will one day flick a nickel in his eye as he begs on a corner, so very very sad... The End.

that's just wonderful. thank you for that.

Aether, does it get cold in your moms basement?

hahahahaha!!!

Aether I think I was really right, when I said, that you should learn how to deal with criticism lol

yeah Æther, people will not always like what you like. it's just part of life. besides, it's only comic books. it's not really that serious, man. it's only comic books.

I agree, I don’t mind when people disagree, often times they have better reasoning than me. Something everyone has to accept in this world is that other people will have differing opinions.

But I... just wanna be... cook kids...... https://youtu.be/FGjSDdYiug8

it's ok to not see eye to eye at times. - - ohhaimark and i have opinions that align most of the time, and other times we're completely opposite. i still think he's a cool person, and enjoy chatting with him. - - comics are fun escapism. they let us live out fantasies that we cannot in real life. sure it's easy to get upset when someone ranks on something you enjoy. but don't take it personally. it's not worth getting upset over. know what i mean? ;)

Yeah for sure, I agree... to be honest it would be boring if we all had the same opinion. I know I may get a little too riled up at times, what can I say. I do feel for you guys though, we are all just Batman fans who just want a story we can enjoy.

no worries. i’m just as guilty for getting riled up plenty of times. but it’s just because we’re passionate about what we enjoy. though sometimes i know i need to be more diplomatic. that’s a foible i need to work on. but i definitely don’t wish any ill. i mean ‘comics’ right? i guess it’s easy to let ourselves get carried away. especially when we all have such varying tastes. but it’s good that you have something you really love and enjoy. that’s really rare these days.

personally i know i’m a Batman addict that can’t step away from the character, no matter how many times i’ve tried. but it’s cool. i may not care for many of the current stories i buy, but i have plenty on back issues that i love. and even though i don’t keep the physical copies of the story i didn’t enjoy, my Batman OCD always makes me rebuy the digital versions just to have. - - very cool Bolland profile pic btw. i really loved that run! :)

Couldn't be more right, atleast Batman himself can build us a bridge. It sucks Tom King doesnt write a Batman on your vibe, cause you clearly love the character. Your criticism helps though, it has me questioning the reasons I like what I like. While hinting at an even larger story at play I might not even be aware of.

In my mind Tom King thinks a big theme with Batman is traumatic recovery. With Bruce's parents dying at a young age, the robin drama, countless mental and physical abuses suffered, how he specializes specifically with mental health needs villians... This whole PTSD thing might be Kings shtick, and yeah that will get old, I'd like to see him be a little more adventurous in the future myself. But for now, I did and do think his style makes for a great fit for Batman.

Maybe it is all a little too redundant, insensitive, ignorant, or weak In comparison to what has been. I haven't read everything myself tbh... Hell, maybe I'll come back here a few years from now and laugh at myself. Arguing, has only enriched my experience thus far though, and deepened my understanding. We may not always see eye to eye, but atleast we have reason for it. Glad we dont have any hard feelings, passion was definitely summoning the savage out of us haha.

Hah and yeah, it was an amazing run, and Bolland is awesome... which reminds me I've been sleeping on Judge Dredge for years and years now :P

that’s very true! one of the great things about the character of Batman is he has such a vast library of stories to delve into. lately i’ve been re-reading a lot of my back issues. some of the stories from the late 80’s thru 90’s. i went in really wanting to enjoy King’s series. i was so done with Snyder’s run and ready for something new. one thing i will give King over Snyder is King doesn’t bombard his readers with pages and pages of exposition. Snyder must get paid per word balloon. xD

i myself am just more used to seeing Batman with a very strong resolve. a man with a plan. some of the stories (like the Denny O’Neil/Neal Adams) may get hokey, but Batman was always quick to figure it out. Morrison's Batman is one of my favorites. he was even tempered, and has a sharp wit. i can see Tom King really enjoys Year One and is always putting nods to that story, this type of storytelling would be great if he were doing more of a LotDK run with stories set early in Batman’s career.

but if you enjoy something, cherish it. you might very well still enjoy it as much even years from now. some of my favorite comics from when i was a teen, i still love. some i see their flaws but can still appreciate them for what they are. ABSOLUTELY! i really felt bad after how ugly i let myself become. and once again, i do apologize.

i really love the few stories that Brian Bolland illustrated for Judge Dredd. mostly the Dark Judges stories. i used to have a bunch of the complete casefiles, but had to sell them. i did keep my Dredd by Bolland oversized HC. that book is a beauty if you can find it. :)